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Women and Torah Learning

Here is an excerpt from B'erot Bat Ayin's Women in the Parsha- "Parshat V'Zot HaBracha" that elicited the following debate on Women and Torah learning:

WOMEN MAY RECEIVE THE CROWN OF TORAH
Although a woman can aspire to become neither a king from the Davidic dynasty nor a Cohen, the crown of the Torah is available to adorn her head. During all generations of Jewish history there have always been great and learned women: the renowned such as Devorah the wife of Lapidot, for whom hordes of people would wait in line to pose their halachic inquiries, Bruria of the Gemarah, who taught her husband how to have mercy on others in accord with the Biblical indictment, and Rashi's daughters who participated in the pilpul (dialectics) of their scholarly husbands, the Tosafots. These are just examples, yet there are many less well-known female scholars throughout the generations from far and near, who taught men behind a mechitza (partition). In our own days, we have been privileged to learn from such outstanding Talmidot Chachamot (learned women) as Nechama Leibowitz, of blessed memory, the queen of Torah exposition, as well as Dr. Tamar Ross, Shlit"a, specializing in the esoteric parts of the Torah. Esther Skopp notes in her article in Jewish Action, that there is a renewed thirst among Orthodox Jewish women to delve in depth into the classical texts of the Torah and its commentaries. Everywhere, new Yeshivot for women are sprouting forth and being filled with spiritual Jewish women seeking to return not only to their roots but also to serious, textual, Torah study. No longer do lectures satisfy our yearning. The new generation of Jewish women want more than just to sit back passively and listen to the wisdom of others. We are ready to work hard, together with our study partners, in order to gain the skills which enable us to master the Torah on our own. Only then will we turn to the Rabbis with our questions.

A Response to E-mail Parshat V'zot Habracha - from Chana Glaberson

If our ancestresses had conducted themselves according to the shita you espouse, the traditional Jewish family would never have survived. After a few generations of disoriented women had abandoned their primary, consuming roles as inculcators of practical Jewish values and guardian recitors of Tehillim, the Jewish home would have disintegrated. The basic premise that the goal and role of a Jewish woman is to become a wife, mother and akeret bayit is as functional today as it always was. Giving "new generation" students/women a dispensation to deconstruct the role of the Jewish woman in some crypto-postmodern mode is the crux of your shita. Citing yechidot such as Dvorah Ha Nevia and Rashi's daughters as role models for Every woman of the new age is a gross simplification and distortion of a delicate and complex issue far beyond the capacity of one who is not a godol b'Torah. These godolim have dedicated many decades of their life to Torah, learning day and night with mesirus nefesh, anovo, yiras Shomayim and shimush of talmidei chochomim of the previous generation. Without the essential and invaluable help of their nshei chayil in the home and the upbringing from their mothers, hatzidkonios, they would never have achieved their levels of chochma and bina.

Young women of the new generation, particularly those coming to Tshuva, have all they can cope with to simply comprehend the fundamental values of Yiddishkeit. A significant proportion of these women comes from dysfunctional homes and environments. Their mindsets and behavior patterns are permeated by the tuma of secular values to a degree that renders it often impossible for them to recognize or acknowledge their true motives and attitudes. To attain kedusha, the formula for women remains the same today, as it always was - Tefilla, Tehillim and a life of chesed. Chazal never counseled a life of "Torah learning" for bnos Yisroel. Your implied suggestion that the time has come for a revision in our approach to Torah learning for women is sadly reminiscent of the calls of the reformers throughout the generations.

What is the primary and greatest chesed for the Jewish woman? To be a wife and mother and focus as much time and effort upon this holy avoda. The woman's role has been established by Chazal as one of tachlisdik, practical application of halacha and kedusha in order to enable the Jewish family to flourish. If a baalat tshuva or a frum from birth girl requires education beyond the hadracha given over from a knowledgable mother, it is an education geared for the akeret habayit - not for the ben Torah. Her instructors are knowledgeable yirei Shomayim whose task is to nurture her neshama. Her curriculum is to spend most of her available time davening or saying Tehillim. Beyond that, knowing Chumash, Tanach, practical halacha and mussar are the mainstays. To detour women into becoming chavrusos in the beis medresh, pouring over theoretical Gemorah pilpul and opaque Kabbalistic texts, aspiring to teach men from "behind a mechitza", as you propose, is a disservice to womanhood and Yiddishkeit. For women as well as men, there is no place for egotistical manipulation of gender roles, Chazal and the sacred texts. Your proposal that: "We are ready to work hard, together with our study partners, in order to gain the skills which enable us to master the Torah on our own. Only then will we turn to the Rabbbis with our questions." exhibits lack of derech eretz for talmidei chachomim and ignorance of the methodology of Jewish learning. One will never master the Torah on one's own. This is the essence of our religion as a religion of mesorah. Your statement is a perversion of halacha and hashkafa as delineated by our gedolim. One requires great syata di Shmaya in order to comprehend even a tiny bit of Torah. And this syata di Shmaya comes only with the hadracha of talmidei chachamim every step of the way.

May the new age bas Yisroel be zoche to establish a bayis neemon b'Yisroel and encourage her husband and sons to learn Torah and spend long hours in the beis medresh.

May the new age bas Yisroel be zoche to her private domain and dispense chochmas noshim and chochmas hachaim, chesed and yiras Shomayim to her family. May the new age bas Yisroel be blessed with the good sense to stick to the tried and true sacred path and not loose her way trying to be cleverer than the chochomim.

Chana Bracha, are you truly intellectually honest? Are your goals in promulgating your shita le sheym Shomayim? Here is a simple test. Distribute these comments with or without your response to them, to the people who received your commentary on Parshat V'zot Habracha.
With affection,
Chana Glaberson

Dear Chana Glaberson,
First of all I want to thank you for taking interest and time to respond to my writings. I always welcome any kind of feedback. I agree with you that the main educational goal of today's Jewish women including Baalei Tshuva is to "comprehend and accept the fundamental values of Yiddishkeit," in order to be Torah true women of valor, wives and mothers imbued with Yirat Shamayim and ahavat Hashem, who have emunat Chachamim (faith in the Rabbis) and accept their Daat Torah, (Torah decisions). If in any way my writings seemed to indicate otherwise I am thankful to you for pointing it out.

As I re-read the sentence you quoted: "We are ready to work hard, together with our study partners, in order tgain the skills which enable us to master the Torah on our own. Only then will we turn to the Rabbis with our questions." I must admit that you are right that: "One will never master the Torah on one's own. This is the essence of our religion as a religion of mesorah." I will add that for this reason great Torah scholars are called Talmidei Chachamim- meaning students of the Sages, and not masters of the Torah. The more we study the more we realize how far we are from mastering the Torah. I therefore reiterate: "We are ready to work hard, together with our study partners, in order to gain the skills which enable us to learn the Torah directly from its source."

I do believe that women's increased Torah learning, (not necessarily gemora learning, and not with the motivation of teaching the men behind a mechitza - I never mentioned that) is part of the geulah process. Today's Torah women struggle with a dilemma of juggling our domestic duties with our Torah scholarship. I would like to ask the readers of this list to respond and take part in the debate l'shem shamayim about the "delicate and complex issue" of Women and Torah learning. Is it true that in order "to attain kedusha, the formula for women remains the same today as it always was - Tefilla, Tehillim and a life of chesed." Or is there a place for the G-d- fearing woman to delve seriously into Torah texts, without it being "irresponsible and a denial of the Jewish woman's heritage."???

Looking forward to hearing your response,
Chana Bracha

Shalom Chana Bracha,
I was looking at some pictures from Bat Ayin and had a rush of nostalgia for the beautiful times I spent there...the wide sky, our little trailers, Helene, the unfolding of the sacred letters to my eyes, and also you...I
miss you.
I read the response from one of your readers...wow...I realize more and more how much resistance you encounter, just in trying to teach women Torah. I am still trying to make my way through the treatment of women's roles in Judaism. I look forward to being a wife and mother, and see that as much of my life's work, but not all of it. In the same way that you are driven to study and teach Torah, I am guided to channel Hebrew chants and share them, to lead prayer. I will encounter even more resistance than you do in your work perhaps, or maybe I will avoid it by not placing myself in communities that can't permit such flexibility in women's roles, who can't hear women's voices in the public domain. Whatever happens, I hope that we can connect through our love of Torah, Judaism, and Jerusalem, and each other's neshamot. I have a problem with the kind of status quo frozenness that I hear in your reader's response. I hear these repeated phrases as "slogans" that really feel crushing to my sense of imagination and creativity. I feel that too much yirat shamayim is keeping Jews from some kind of essential self-expression and partnership with Hashem in creation...of music, of learning, of the revelation of ourselves. It is this energy that I found most difficult in the community at Bat Ayin. This is not an attack on your teachings, or the place itself. I learned so much, received so many gifts there...I found it really beautiful to experience a community of people with
such deep faith and dedication to Jewish practice. However, the "formula" that is presented for a "Torah Life", and the lack of openness to other ways of experiencing or expressing Judaism really smushes my soul in some fundamental way. I think that my feelings are valid and very connected to my own experience of G-d. This is what made me fall in love with Judaism in the first place, and not just the products of the impurity of my secular upbringing, or my yetzer hara, as might be argued by your reader.

I think I'm writing this to you out of a desire to stay connected, and not just drift away from you, feeling that I would not be accepted and loved if I expressed views or feelings that challenge the social order of religious Judaism, or your beliefs. I hope that we can be close even as I make choices that challenge traditional roles. While I've been here in the states, I have had the opportunity to lead prayer with large groups of Jews seeking to connect with Judaism. Sharing my chants, and having them joyfully received by other Jews, is one of the most beautiful and fulfilling things that I've experienced in this lifetime. I feel, at these moments, like I am fulfilling the purpose of my life, and unfolding the true nature of my soul and the gifts with which Hashem has blessed me. I am totally committed to the uplifting of the Jewish people through prayer and consciousness; this is the work of my life. I don't feel that the status quo will bring Moshiach. To me, truth to our own feelings and being centered in our personal dialogue with the One is the first step towards the Beyt Hamikdash, may we see it in our days. See you soon in Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh. Peace and blessings to you dear friend,
Tziona Zen Ahava

This response by Tziona (Zen Ahava) is exerted from a personal letter to me. I look forward to continued dialogue in dealing with and defining the traditional role of the Jewish woman, in an time when new opportunities for women's spiritual expression continues to open up. I feel this dialogue is so very important. I believe that whatever stand we personally take in our belief as well as in our own lives, it is important to be open to understand other ways, and not to condemn women who come from a different place than us. Thus dialogue is a great means to engender this mutual understanding which is necessary to bring Geulah Shleima
Chana Bracha

MY RESPONSES ARE IN CAPS.. CHAVA RACHEL SABAN

Subject: Response to parshat Z'ot Habracha

..The basic premise that the goal and role of a Jewish woman is to become a wife, mother and akeret bayit is as functional today as it always was. Giving "new generation" students/women a dispensation to deconstruct the role of the Jewish woman in some crypto-postmodern mode is the crux of your shita. Citing yechidot such as Dvorah Ha Nevia and Rashi's daughters as role models for Every woman of the new age is a gross simplification and distortion of a delicate and complex issue far beyond the capacity of one who is not a godol b'Torah. These godolim have dedicated many decades of their life to Torah, learning day and night with mesirus nefesh, anovo, yiras Shomayim and shimush of talmidei chochomim of the previous generation. Without the essential and invaluable help of their nshei chayil in the home and the upbringing from their mothers, hatzidkonios, they would never have achieved their levels of chochma and bina. YOU TOO ARE OVER-SIMPLIFYING THE ISSUE, REBETZIN. IT IS IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT OUR NSHEI CHAYIL ANCESTORS INCLUDED WOMEN WHO REACHED HIGH LEVELS OF TORAH LEARNING. UNDOUBTEDLY THEY ALSO KEPT FUNCTIONAL HOMES. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ALL HAVE TO BE LIKE THEM. NOR DOES IT MEANT THAT TO ASPIRE TO HIGH LEVELS OF TORAH ONE MUST GIVE UP ONE'S FEMININE TIKKUN. HASHEM WANTS US TO SERVE WITH THE TALENTS GIVEN TO US.

Young women of the new generation, particularly those coming to tshuva, have all they can cope with to simply comprehend the fundamental values of Yiddishkeit. TRUE, BUT LEARNING MORE CAN ONLY HELP, YIDDISHKEIT IS AWHOLE, ONE ASPECT OF IT CONNECTS TO ALL OTHER ASPECTS. A significant proportion of these women comes from dysfunctional homes and environments. Their mindsets and behavior patterns are permeated by the Tums of secular values to a degree that renders it often impossible for them to recognize or acknowledge their true motives and attitudes. IF ONE IS SINCERE IN ONE'S DESIRE TO SERVE HASHEM, HASHEM WILL GUIDE THAT PERSON To attain kedusha, the formula for women remains the same today as it always was - Tefilla, Tehillim and a life of chesed. Chazal never counseled a life of "Torah learning" for b'nos Yisroel. WHAT ABOUT THE LEBOVITCHER REBBE WHO PUBLICLY STATED THAT WOMEN NOWADAYS MUST LEARN HASSIDUT?

...Her curriculum is to spend most of her available time davening or saying Tehillim. Beyond that, knowing Chumash,Tanach, practical halacha and mussar are the mainstays. To detour women into becoming chavrusos in the beis medresh, pouring over theoretical Gemorah pilpul and opaque Kabbalistic texts, RABBI ARYEH KAPLAN HAS MADE VERY CLEAR TRANSLATIONS OF BASIC KABBALA, HAVE YOU READ "INNER SPACE" FOR EXAMPLE? aspiring to teach men from "behind a mechitza", as you propose, is a disservice to womanhood and Yiddishkeit. For women as well as men, there is no place for egotistical manipulation of gender roles, Chazal and the sacred texts. I DON'T THINK THAT THE THIRST FOR KABBALISTIC KNOWLEDGE, WHICH IS A CRUCIAL STEP TO HELP BRING GEULA SHLEMA, IS EGOTISTICAL. YOU ARE READING EGOISM INTO THE ISSUE. ...Your statement is a perversion of halacha and hashkafa as delineated by our gedolim. One requires great syata di Shmaya in order to comprehend even a tiny bit of Torah. YES, I AGREE And this syata di Shmaya comes only with the hadracha of talmidei chachamim every step of the way. YOU CAN ALSO PRAY DIRECTLY FOR HASHEM FOR INSIGHTS AND GUIDANCE IN WHAT TO LEARN AND HOW TO LEARN IT.

It is irresponsible to delude women into believing they should or could "master" Gemora, Kabbala et al from their superficial gleanings. An honest and humble approach is in order here. What is more, to encourage women to relegate home and family to a lower order of priority in order to spend hours of intense chavrusa in or out of the beis medresh, delving into texts, is beyond irresponsible. It is a denial of the Jewish woman's heritage. WHERE DOES SHE SAY WE MUST DO THIS RELEGATING? IT IS TRUE THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PERIODS OF A WOMAN'S LIFE WHERE SHE IS (WE PRAY) SO TAKEN UP WITH CHILDREARING THAT INTENSE (LONG) CHEVRUTA SESSIONS ARE IMPOSSIBLE.. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT NOT ALL WOMEN SPEND THE MAJORITY OF THEIR LIFE IN THIS ROLE. SOME WOMEN TAKE A LONG TIME TO FIND THEIR MARRIAGE PARTNER, IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT, IT'S JUST HOW IT IS IN THESE TIMES OF GALUT. SOME WOMEN NEBUCH, NEVER MARRY; OR MAYBE AREN'T BLESSED WITH CHILDREN.. AND THEN THERE'S THE PERIOD AFTER CHILDREN HAVE LEFT THE NEST. I FIND YOUR VIEW OF "WOMEN'S ROLE" NON-COMPREHENSIVE, POLLYANNISH.

May the new age bas Yisroel be zoche to perpetuate "authentic Jewish Torah learning", as you term it, but according to the way of our ancestresses through the generations, not according to the fashion of the feminists or the latest intellectual fad. May the new age bas Yisroel be zoche to establish a bayis neemon b'Yisroel and encourage her husband and sons to learn Torah and spend long hours in the beis medresh. May the new age bas Yisroel be zoche to her private domain and dispense
chochmas noshim and chochmas hachaim, chesed and yiras Shomayim to her
family. AMEN TO ALL THIS..

May the new age bas Yisroel be blessed with the good sense to stick to the tried and true sacred path and not loose her way trying to be cleverer than the chochomim. YOU SEEM TO THINK IT'S A COMPETITION. TRUE WISDOM GRANTS TRUE, INNER PEACE THAT WILL NOT BE THREATENED BY ANOTHER ONE'S WISDOM.

A Response to comments by Chava Rochel Saban from Chana Glaberson

Chava Rochel Saban comments: You are too over-simplifying the issue, Rebbetzin. It is important to acknowledge that our nshei chayil ancestors included women who reached high levels of Torah learning. Undoubtedly they also kept functional homes. This does not mean that we all have to be like them. Nor does it mean that to aspire to high levels of Torah one must give up one's feminine tikkun...It is true that there are certain periods of a woman's life where she is (we pray) so taken up with childrearing that intense (long) chavruta sessions are impossible... But the reality is that not all women spend the majority of their life in this role. Some women take a long time to find their marriage partner, it's not their fault, it's just how it is these times of galut. Some women, nebuch, never marry; or maybe aren't blessed with children... And then there's the period after children have left the nest. I find you view of "women's role" non-comprehensive, pollyannaish.

Chana Glaberson responds: I am indeed cognizant of the fact that a broad spectrum of bnos Yisroel exists. Because of yeridos ha doros, we have to re-frame our aspirations when we model our lives after Dvorah ha Nevia or Rashi's daughters. If we are not sensitive to where we are holding in the doros and where we are truly holding personally, our efforts will not bear fruit. For all the generations, our mesorah teaches that the goal of every bas Yisroel is to become an ezer k'negdo and establish a bayis neemon b'Yisroel and fulfill the dictum: "Our daughters are corner pillars for the sanctuary of the Jewish home." (Tehillim 144:12, translated according to the perush of HaRav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch) In our day, this fundamental priority (feminine tikkun, if you will), is often misconstrued. All too often the single bas Yisroel (frum from birth and baalas tshuva) enters a vicious cycle while awaiting her zivug. She concentrates in an inordinate manner upon self-fulfillment through learning. Sometimes it is Torah learning and sometimes - lehavdil, lo aleinu - it is secular studies. Even the bas Yisroel who immerses herself in Torah texts, such as Gemora and all manner of theoretical, intellectual pursuits becomes a prisoner of her intellect. This new age Yiddishe maidele has yet to cultivate the value of sitting for hours at the knees of a wise old Yerushalmi tzadekeses, taking in their kind of wisdom. In the process of becoming intellectually fortified, her mida of gaiva becomes dominant. She believes that she is too intellectually superior for most of the men she meets or hears about.
As a result - consciously or subconsciously - she puts off marriage and family. If this cycle occurs during marriage, the family is given short shrift because the mother spends long hours on her learning. Often sholom bayis problems arise when she carries on a constant critique of her husband's learning. Even long hours on her davening can be counterproductive. It is the rare new age bas Yisroel who can keep the household functioning as it should and immerses herself in learning and avodas Hashem. If the bas Yisroel's learning and davening are not l'sheym Shomayim and dedicated to the welfare of the household as well as the self, they can destroy worlds.

Sara Schenirer was a childless, Chassidic divorcee, living all alone in Crakow. She had no formal education. Her brilliance and tzidkus enabled her to rise to amazing levels and to found the Beis Yakov school system.
She utilized the texts l'mayseh in order to achieve her feminine tikkun.
She became a spiritual mother to generations of talmidos. She instilled emuna, values and midos along with academic knowledge. Her daughters/talmidos were motivated to become wives and mothers of bnei Torah
and to send their sons and husbands off to beis medresh. She expanded their minds and hearts b'derech ha Torah in a revolutionary way. Yet she achieved it all with such tznius and derech eretz for the tzadikim and talmidei chochomim, that her ideals live on forever.

Chava Rochel Saban comments: What about the Lubovitcher Rebbe who publicly stated that women nowadays must learn chassidut?...I don't think that the search for Kabbalistic knowledge, which is a crucial step to bring the Geula shleima, is egotistical. You are reading egoism into the issue.

Chana Glaberson responds: Bitul of the ego is a constant battle for men and women on all levels. The ego is such a subtle yetzer hora that it requires constant vigilance to keep it at bay. Don't underestimate its
powers! As bnos Yisroel, we view ourselves within the perspective of the chain from Sara, Rifka, Rochel and Leah. Where women and Kabbala fit into this mesorah is a deep issue and the tzadikim and chochomin are our guides. Our cheshbon nefesh is to continually ask ourselves: In doing my feminine tikkun, am I doing what Hashem wants me to do or am I doing what I want to do?

Rebbe Nachman of Breslov said that we have to be Litaim before we are chassidim. We have to know halacha, Chumash, Tanach, sifrei mussar(also Gemora for men). After achieving the required degrees of competence in these areas, we can begin to try to be chassidim. Rebbe Nachman told his chassidim to make their wives into chassidot. From this we learn that it is very desirable for a bas Yisroel to know holy and sublime inyonim.

The chassidim once wanted to know what Rebbe Nachman said in hisbodedus. They listened at his door and heard him cry out to Hashem to help him to be a "kosher Yid". Chassidus teaches that to strive for emunah pshuta is a very high, difficult task. The teva of a woman makes it easier for her to attain this madrega than a man. The sefer "Shevet Mussar" is a classic guide that focuses upon what it means to be an isha kshera. The baalei Kabbala have much to say about the geula in relationship to the sefirot and the role of women. I do not understand these inyonim, so I cannot write about them. However, Ha Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch wrote over a century ago a chapter (Essay Teves IV) on the Jewish Woman in the
series "Judaism Eternal" which included the following: "G-d creates something new on earth, a woman encircles a man." (Yirmiyahu 31:21)

This is the new verity that the prophet has proclaimed for the time of Israel's redemption. The woman encompasses the man. Only feminine qualities, the human qualities that are so aptly represented by the female, will give support and security to the endeavors of man. 'Woman becomes the wall that surrounds the man.' Salvation comes not from the outside but only from within. The happiness of nations, the salvation of mankind depends upon the heart and the spirit, upon the home, that small space with which the heart and the spirit are cultivated.

Chava Rochel Saban comments: You can also pray directly to Hashem for insights and guidance in what to learn and how to learn it.

Chana Glaberson responds: In order for her to receive that special measure of direct personal guidance from Above as well as below, bnos Yisroel have been given an incredible aid - tznius. Chazal say that when a man dies and his neshomo ascends to Heaven, the first question that the beis din shel maalo asks is - did he set aside regular times for learning Torah. When a woman dies and her neshomo ascends, the first question she is asked is - was she tzanua. All her achievements and tikkunim are dependent upon modesty. The time we set aside for learning about tznius and the efforts we make in refining our observance of tznius are top priority.

Dear Chana Glaberson,

I agree with everything you write about the importance of zniut (modesty) and working on one's ego. I am interested in knowing the source for the chazal you quoted about the woman being asked when she comes to the Heavenly Court whether she was zanua. I would like to include this source in my teaching about women's issues. I don't think however, that serious Torah learning for women and zniut in any way are mutually exclusive. On the contrary, as a result of t learning of the sources inside many women are inspired to take upon themselves a greater level of zniut. For example, we are now experiencing a revival of married women's hair covering along with women's intensified Torah learning.

You mentioned Sarah Schenirer as a role model. I wonder whether you are aware that she was quite revolutionary in her time. There had never been any schools for women's formal Torah learning before her initiative. If we were to apply your notion of "status quo" to her, she would never have been allowed to start the Beit Yaacov school system. After much resistance she finally did become endorsed by the Chafetz Chaim who realized that a new need for women's Torah learning had arisen due to women's greater opportunities to enter into the universities of secular studies. I feel that women's aspiration to go even deeper into Torah studies today is an extension and continuation of what Sarah Schenirer began. Just like her, women today aspire to "utilize the texts l'mayseh in order to achieve our feminine tikkun. ... to instill emuna, values and midos along with academic knowledge." True there are those (lo alainu) who learn for the wrong reasons and are full of gaava (haughtiness) and spurred by their ego. However, this applies just as much to men's learning. I am sure that you will agree that the men should not be discouraged from serious Torah study, just because some men learn only in order to gain respect and Rabbinical titles. It is our endeavor to always work on ourselves and constantly battle the ego in order to act l'shem shamayim (for the sake of heaven) whether in our learning or anything else we are involved with. We all need to focus on purifying our own motives rather than judging others. "...for a man looks on the outward appearance, but Hashem looks on the heart" (Shmuel 1 16:7) Even a woman who immerses herself into secular studies might be a great Zadekket who is learning to be let's say a doctor or a nurse, because she in her great chesed aspires to help others. Who are we to judge? I truly believe that mutual understanding, acceptance and tolerance is a main ingredient so sorely missing in order to bring about the Geulah Shleima (complete redemption).

Shabbat Shalom,
Chana Bracha

Here is an anonymous response:

I just want to say that if I had a teacher like Chana Glaberson I don't think I would have stuck with being religious, just the fact that secular knowledge is oy, G-d forbid, negating all the knowledge sages like Rashi had as well as women who were b'not yisroel but also ran business to help their husbands learn torah and just to support their family ; I recently read a book from the 14th century where a religious woman was the mainstay for her family dealing primarily with the secular world and managed to rear Torah scholars and help her husband. How does she think people can get along in this world? There are many ways to be modest and be learned in the Torah realm and secular realm and personally I can't stand reading this drivel. amongst other things that she mentions. I know from my experience that women who try to spread these caveman approaches to Torah for women actually hold us down in the end, and the women who are inclined to go either way, religious or secular will be swayed to stick with being secular after being exposed to these kinds of approaches. Part of the beauty of Judaism is that almost anything, excluding obvious reprehensible behavior- can be uplifted and given an injection of the Divine.--- shabbat shalom and have strength fighting for the intelligent choice, which is obviously the most spiritual in the end!!!!!

Chana Bracha,
I have found this debate fascinating. It came at a time when I went to another Kaballistic Rabbi and told him what my husband was teaching me only to find out he has no idea or knowledge of what I practice because he has never been taught those things. My desire for learning is fueled by a firm knowledge that HaShem put me on this earth to work with healing (Tikunei Nefesh) and advice people about their health problems, the roots and the Tikkun available for them. I could have listened to the Rav's biased opinion and stopped studying altogether had I not been made aware of some crucial details. I believe in showing proper Kavod to a Rav but it has been disappointing to me a shortsightedness on some of their parts. Thank God my husband believes it's okay to teach me. I have a husband and I teach in Gan and I still learn. It doesn't make me less of a wife it makes me more able to converse with my husband about his interests. My roundedness as a woman helps him to see another side of things. Baruch HaShem that I had the teaching that you provided with your school. Good Luck, Love Hadassah

I learn hasidut and things specific to Nevuah (profecy) and Healing. I asked the Rav about my business with herbal stuff and healing, began to say that my husband was also a Kabbalist and that he was teaching me and he said "You shouldn't learn Kabbalah! " My husband said that I should tell him hasidut, wording means everything in this case. If I needed ritual to be connected I would ththis is manipulation. I have no interest whatsoever in ever learning ritual or anything of that sort. We had a second meeting with the Rav together and he made it apparent that he had never learned the Abulafia system of meditation
or anything my husband teaches. It's like a doctor, everyone has their specialty. I hope this makes it more clear. In regards to healing it became apparent that peoples health was a combination of various emotional, spiritual and physical factors. For instance if someone has had a traumatic experience that needs to be released from the body you are not going to be able to do this without Hashem. Hashem is the only healer, we just endeavor to be a Kadosh vessel. When I work with people I see the seed that has caused the illness whether an avera, an event or a combination of things. The work then is to remove the seed cause, enlighten the individual on that thing or things and to modify the behavior of the individual. This requires many things,
Tefilla, sometimes Tzedeka, specific Tehillim, etc. Boy is this hard to communicate. I hope I am making this clearer. Please make my things anonymous. The Kabbalah provides roadmaps for this. Love Hadassah

Response to Chana Bracha Siegelbaum from Chana Glaberson

Chana Bracha Shalom
How are you? I'm finding the debate really interesting. A friend of mine is coming for Shabbat (from Neve Ya'acov) and she would like me to print out the debate so we can discuss it. I've deleted the files and now can't find them. Could you please send them along again to me. Perhaps with the Rebetzins's permission it could become a booklet. It is so appropriate to our times.
Lehitra'ot and Shabbat Shalom

Chana Bracha Siegelbaum: I don't think however, that serious Torah learning for women and tzniut in any way are mutually exclusive. On the contrary, as a result of learning of the sources inside many women are inspired to take upon themselves a greater level of tznius.

Chana Glaberson responds: The fact that women do not have the mitzvo to learn Torah and that men do have this mitzvo is a deep, difficult concept for the new age bas Yisroel to digest. The question of priorities and the degree to which a bas Yisroel can learn Torah and achieve her tikkun is addressed in detail by Rabbi Pesach Falk, in his new book, "Modesty - An Adornment for Life". He clarifies some subtle, complicated issues you raise with this ostensibly reasonable thesis. Rabbi Falk explains in the section "What Torah does for Men, Tznius does for Women" that when a bas Yisroel fully appreciates what tznius is, she will relegate Torah learning to its proper proportions in her life. He elaborates: "Due to the great importance that must be attached to the protection of women and girls, the yetzer hora aims at misrepresenting the requirements of tznius and kedushas Yisroel. His assault has become particularly potent in our times as golus moves toward its close and the much awaited era of Moshiach comes ever nearer... Apart from Tznius being an outstanding mitzvo in its own right, it serves a second function upon which much of a woman's Yiddishkeit may depend. This is that tznius is an "antidote" to the yetzer hora for women in much the same way as Torah learning is an antidote to the yetzer hora for men. Chazal say: 'I created the yetzer hora (to entice man to sin) and I have created Torah as an antidote to it (Kiddushin 30B)... In addition, a woman, whose function is to establish and manage a home and family, does not have Torah learning to counteract her yetzer hora. If so, from where should she draw the strength to withstand such natural desires and overcome such weakness? The answer to this is that women have their own form of "inoculation" against nisyonos which is the
equivalent of Torah learning. This is the wonderful trait of tznius, which when kept properly is all encompassing...."

The Maharal miPrague writes (Gevuros Hashem, chapter 60): "We see that the Imahos were praised and credited primarily for their tznius because the ultimate distinction of a woman and her supreme greatness is her perfection in tznius". We do not find such statements with regard to perfection in Torah learning for women in chazal or in the writings of contemporary Gedolei Torah.

Harav Hagaon Elya Svei stated in a speech: "The Torah entrusts its greatest duty to women - the task of 'repairing the world' by building future generations and with this preserving the eternal purity of the Jewish people...Tznius must be the foundation of the Jewish home. The essence of womanhood is tznius..." From this we learn that there is a measure of mutual exclusivity between women's tznius and women's principal role as akeres bayis on the one hand, and Torah learning on the other. Tznius is the ikar, the inyon in which to immerse ourselves. Torah learning is tofel, useful to the Jewish woman to the extent that it serves her role as ezer k'negdo and mother. To discuss exceptional supermothers, a feminist myth that was long ago debunked, is superfluous. To encourage young women of marriageable age to immerse themselves in consuming careers be it chesed or otherwise, is not Torahdik hadrocho for the bas Yisroel. Her priority chesed and her consuming "career" is to take care of her own family. I have witnessed too many homes and children neglected by women running off to the beis medresh.

Chana Bracha Siegelbaum: You mentioned Sara Schenirer as a role model. I wonder whether you are aware that she was quite revolutionary in her time.,, If we were to apply your notion of "status quo" to her , she would never have been allowed to start the Beit Yakov schools system.

Chana Glaberson responds: Sara Schenirer's revolution was within the parameters of Torah halacha and hashkafa. From the moment she began her quest for solutions to the problems of women's education in her day, she consulted the gedolim and admorim. Although her ideas were controversial at first, she always had the public backing of contemporary gedolim, most notably the Gerer Rebbe. She never took a single significant step without their guidance.

Chana Bracha Siegelbaum: I feel that women's aspirations to go even deeper into Torah studies today is an extension and continuation of what Sara Schenirer began. Just like her, women today aspire to "utilize the texts l'mayseh in order to achieve our feminine tikkun."

Chana Glaberson responds: Sara Schenirer was a pure Yiddish neshomo on a completely different madrega than we are familiar with today. We have to face the hard truth that we are a generation contaminated by western liberal-humanist-relativist philosophies, feminism and women's lib, not to mention doses of eastern avoda zaros as well. These are not Torah values.
As much as an apologist tries to twist up these yetzer horas and kasher them for contemporary consumption, it just isn't palatable. We are in denial if we don't see that women's minyonim, women's Megilla readings for women, women learning beis medresh style with female chavrusos, women dancing with sifrei Torah are innovations coming from these alien philosophies and places of tuma. Certainly the above practices are not condoned in any seminary committed to the standards of Sara Schenirer. A brilliant, distinguished rebbetsin, the wife of a godol hador living in Yershalayim, spoke to me about Sara Schenirer. This rebbetsin was close to the talmidos of Sara Schenirer and taught in the school system. She related: "Sara Schenirer is turning over in her grave when she sees what is being perpetrated upon Jewish women today in the name of women's Torah learning. Sara Schenirer's mission was to educate through uplifting bnos Yisroel, not catering to their yetzer horos from secular society. Sara Schenirer was a simple woman of simple, pure emuna. In her modest wisdom, she knew that learning which is not coming from tahara and kedusha can destroy the woman's neshomo and those around her. Her standards were in accordance with the guidance of the chachomim and tzadikim. She never considered lowering them in order to cater to her students' assimilationist tendencies. At beginning, the gedolim were worried that her new school system might degenerate into the kind of liberal western mode so prevalent today. They soon came to realize that Sara Schenirer was an ehrlicher bas Yisroel, possessing emuna in Hashem, His Torah and His messengers, the chochomim and tzadikim in every generation. She was endowed with the strength to withstand the pressures of alien influences."

Rebbe Nachman of Breslov enlightens us in these matters (from "Advice" by Reb Noson, the chapter "Alien Philosophies and Ideologies"). In the words of Rebbe Nachman: When a person is born, his intelligence is limited. When he begins to use it to think about how to serve G-d, it starts growing. But if a person fills his mind with alien ideas, the intelligence of his holy soul is diminished in direct proportion to the space taken up by these ideas. This unholy "intelligence' becomes the source of all kinds of negative appetites and character traits. .. This is why a person has to be so careful to guard his mind and thoughts and make sure that he never admits alien ideas or ways of looking at things... To achieve true repentance and to make amends for all one's sins, one must cleanse the mind of all these alien ideas...Certain of the great tzadikim were obligated to go into these philosophies in order to extricate and elevate the souls which have fallen and become sunk in them. You cannot argue that it is permissible for others to enter them on the grounds that many of the great scholars of the past were involved. In their case it was an obligation. And through the great sanctity they possessed, they had the power to release the souls, which were trapped. But people who are not on a comparable level of sanctity, and needless to add, the ordinary people of our own age, should never enter these realms and risk being eternally lost.

Chana Bracha Siegelbaum: We all need to focus on purifying our own motives rather than judging others. ..I truly believe that mutual understanding, acceptance and tolerance is a main ingredient so sorely missing in order to bring about the Geula Shleima.

Chana Glaberson responds: You are so right. Only Hashem has the right and the ability to judge his creatures. We are living in a pluralistic, "live and let live" secular environment. All too often we bring that alien way of thinking into Yiddishkeit, with invariably disastrous results. Along with love of all of Am Yisroel, we are instructed that "Kol Yisroel areivim ze lo ze". The Torah does not countenance a pluralistic, "live and let live" attitude toward life. The Torah instructs tolerance of individuals who don't live up to Torah ideals. On the other hand, the Torah has no tolerance whatsoever for sheker. Our Torah instructs us to care for our fellow Yidden b'ruchnius and b'gashmius. Along with tzedoko and gemilus chasodim, we are responsible for our fellow Yid's neshomo just as we are for our own. Helping to save another Yid from the inferno of alien philosophies is pikuach nefesh in much the same way as rescuing him from a burning building. Personal cheshbon nefesh and interpersonal dialogue are the warp and woof of the loom of spiritual growth.

For my part, I have come to the end of this forum. The issues are clear and I have no more to offer. The wisdom of the chochomim, the tzadikim and noshim tzidkonios are available to every member of Klal Yisroel who has the desire for Toras Emes.

Affectionately,
Chana Glaberson

Shalom!
My name is Rivkah Lambert. I live in Baltimore and know a few women who have studied with you in Israel. One of them, Pamela Rosen, forwarded to me a few of your divrei Torah, which I found fascinating. Pamela asked me to send you her warm regards. The other woman I know is Leah Soifer, who may have been called Yocheved when she was in Israel - by the way, she had a baby boy this past year. I am a B.T. of many years and now married to a Yeshiva University-trained rabbi who shares a large Modern Orthodox pulpit here in Baltimore. I teach adult Jewish studies quite a lot, almost always something related to women and Judaism. I love to teach women who know relatively little. I consider what is happening with women and Judaism, particularly as it relates to Torah study, to be part of a movement toward Moshiach and a correction of what is wrong with mainstream American Judaism. I consider myself an Orthodox feminist, and say so quite openly.

Having said that, I am writing to ask that you add me to your distribution list for your divrei Torah. I am currently teaching (among other things) an 8-week course called "Women as Spiritual Beings" and I plan to use the exchange between you and another woman regarding women's roles in Judaism, because I think the two voices capture so perfectly the tension in
Orthodox Judaism. It helps that both voices are reasoned and intelligent and the arguments are presented in their fullness.

I would be honored if you would allow me to listen in as you teach your students.

I am a B.T. of many years and now married to a Yeshiva University-trained rabbi who shares a large Modern Orthodox pulpit here in Baltimore. I teach adult Jewish studies quite a lot, almost always something related to women and Judaism. I love to teach women who know relatively little. I consider what is happening with women and Judaism, particularly as it relates to
Torah study, to be part of a movement toward Moshiach and a correction of what is wrong with mainstream American Judaism. I consider myself an Orthodox feminist, and say so quite openly. Chana Glaberson advocates strongly that Jewish women ought to focus their energy on being wives and mothers, as our ancestors have always done, to the exclusion of Torah study and, I assume, working. She fails to mention two points that I think are worthy of mentioning. First, not all women are zoche to be wives and mothers and even those of us that are, may not be wives and mothers our whole adult lives. This is especially true of BT women who may marry relatively late or of women who, for whatever reason, cannot find the right man or cannot have children. And what of the woman after her children are grown or who are widowed relatively young (lo aleinu)? What are they to do with their lives, how are they to grow spiritually, in the absence of a husband, or a husband and children?

Second, it is historically inaccurate to view our female ancestors as having always been home, davening, saying Tehillim and doing chesed while waiting for their husbands and sons to return from the beis medrash. Look at the words of Eishet Chayil. At least at the p'shat level, they clearly describes a woman who is economically active. And for hundreds of years, the European-Jewish cultural ideal was for a man to learn Torah and for the wife to support the family. It was the impact of Haskalah and the decreasing respect for this old cultural ideal, especially in immigrant America, that brought about the change that led to the new cultural ideal of "husband as breadwinner". And that's only in the last 120 years. Before that, women were out there working.
Finally, I think that the derech of halacha is large enough to accommodate more than one path for Jewish women. Clearly, if every Jewish woman devoted her life to gemara study, that would be a social and spiritual disaster for the Jewish people. But we are not all alike, and the Torah allows for each of us to make certain choices, within halachic parameters, of course. All
women were not created with identical natures. To advocate a single lifestyle for all Jewish women is unnecessarily narrow.

I am currently teaching an 8-week course called "Women as Spiritual Beings" and I plan to use the exchange between you and another woman regarding women's roles in Judaism, because I think the two voices capture so perfectly the tension in
Orthodox Judaism. It helps that both voices are reasoned and intelligent and the arguments are presented in their fullness.

Respectfully,
Rivkah Y. Lambert, Ph.D.

A few reactions:
This has all beenquite fascinating, eye-opening, and heart wrenching. Thank you Chana Bracha for creating such a non-judgemental forum. I am just curious where Chana Glaberson learned and if she is a teacher now, and if so where?
Fondly, Jory Stillman (Shoshanna Raizel)

You're doing wonderful things with the berot discussion list, even though some of the perspectives seem daunting to me they're still useful to read (I side with you on the debate... for obvious reasons, I think!).
Libi

Chana Bracha:
It is a very important exchange that has developed on your list which my wife and I are reading with interest and may comment if it seems appropriate.
Yaacov Lefcoe

Thank you for the exciting discussion emanating from the panel of experts on "the" debate. I think all was said that needed to be said. Suffice it to say, these people are coming from very different places. There are many ways to serve Hashem, point being, each and every one of these ways has to be Leshaim Shamayim and done with modesty. Only then will men and women alike
receive merit in the world to come. We must all continue in our own way to make kiddushei Hashem that brings light the whole Jewish Nation!

I'm just catching up on the debate on women's learning. It's very exciting isn't it. I was imagining your face and how enthusiastic you would have been feeling about the issue. It really is a difficult issue. I think the question of whether women's desire to study is because of over-secularization and against our spiritual-best-interests is a very valid one. When I look after my one year old niece I find it very tedious and I have often wondered if I would feel differently about it if I were not so highly educated. Although at the same time, why has G-d given us women such good intellects if we were not meant to use them to their full potential? Also, if one believes that women should study, does that belief contradict some rabbinical laws/prescriptions? Sadly I
have no answers to the questions. I am prepared to accept that it is possible that our desire to study could be a wrong direction for us, although I do have a strong desire to study and do not see another comparable way of attaining the same fulfillment.

Dear Mechael and Chana Bracha:
I too have enjoyed reading this material, and I think it speaks well for your audience that men uniformly (unless I missed one) stood to one side in order to let women lead the discussion.

Dear Chana Bracha Siegelbaum,
Thank you for posting this forum on women's learning. I am glad to read the words and arguments of women of differing opinions who have taken the time to speak to each other and to teach one another. All of the orthodox Jewish women I knew learned Torah. Some of them said Tehillim regularly and learned a little Chumash and a little practical halacha. Others learned Gemara, Chumash with meforashim that I had never heard of, and compared the pesak of Ovadia Yosef with that of Rav Moshe Feinstein. I don't know that either group was more successful in marriage or in child rearing. I also wonder whether that is so important. I am certain that Judaism values marriage and having children. I am sure because a Jewish man is obligated to find a wife and marry her and is obligated to have children. To my knowledge whether or not a woman is obligated to do either of these things is highly debatable, although I think it is generally looked upon positively if she chooses to. I don't think there is any reason to believe that women are obligated to recite Tehillim, either, although it is certainly a praiseworthy thing. The mitzva of chesed for women, as far as I know, is no different than is the mitzva for a man. The classic arguments, that women would fail in observing these mitzvoth if they learned Torah, are not persuasive because in these areas woman are either less obligated than men, as in the case of marrying, peru urvo and reciting Tehillim, or they are equally obligated, as in the mitzva of chesed. Instead, the debate over whether or not women should learn Torah should focus on one of two things. First, most obviously, it should
focus on what the Torah has to say on the matter. To this end it is significant to look at Tanach, Mishna, Gemara, halacha, and the teshuvot of Rabbis. To my knowledge, there is much evidence in both directions. Second, it should concentrate on whether or not learning is helpful to the woman in observing the mitzvot that she is obligated in, such as Shabbat, kashrut, honesty, respect for parents etc. In this regard, I think common sense would dictate that ignorance of Torah would not be helpful in the observance of it. I am twenty years old, and glad that I grew up in a community of women who learned, whether it was much of the time or a little of the time. I am happy I had the chance to see them interact with their families, friends, neighbors and complete strangers, in ways that reflected their dedication to Torah. These religious women have taught me, as I go through life, to look at my future and pray to G-d that he will help me to be good. They have taught me that I absolutely must do whatever I can to keep the mitzvot, especially those that I am obligated in. I see the importance of Torah learning and observance in their families, in their jobs, in their kitchens, words, shuls, schools, and streets. I see it when they walk back into a store to return extra change, when they pray, when they visit the sick.
May all of us find favor in the eyes of G-d and man.
Thank you again.

(The author prefers to remain anonymous.)